Staying Safe- What is it really?

legaljen1969

In another thread I mentioned that our county has relaxed their mask mandate. I did say I hope it is a success because it will make it a little less unpleasant to be outside during the hot humid summer that is approaching. Heck, for several days last week, it had already arrived. So if it's been that hot in early April- high 80s, then we can only imagine what summer will bring. SO, I know people want us to "be safe" but what is safe?
People say "Follow the science" but the "science" changes constantly. First it was "don't wear a mask. It won't help" to "You MUST wear a mask" to "Maybe even two or three masks."
And then there is the vaccine. To take or not to take? I was not particularly thrilled about it but I have taken my first shot. So, if you are holding off- what are your reasons? I have my own reservations about it, but decided if I want to travel, I better get shot.

legaljen1969

Reasons I have heard for "hesitation" and "refusal" to take the vaccine?

1. Speed of production and distribution. It was produced quickly and with less time to test long term effects. I KNOW it wasn't just thrown off the back of a turnip truck, but it was produced quickly and in mass doses. Do we really have knowledge of quality control when the push is to "get the shot in as many arms as possible in as short a time as possible." It seems that showing how many vaccinations are being given has overshadowed making sure it is "safe." In an effort to produce a "one shot" situation, the production and distribution of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine was fast tracked even more as the demand for a "one dose" shot became greater. Now, Johnson & Johnson vaccine has been paused due to the reports of blood clots in women after taking. No it hasn't been "recalled" but "paused." Yes, the reports are like 4 in 4 point something million. Still the powers that be decided to pause and re-assess.

2. Lack of knowledge of long term effects. I know several "front line workers" who are even hesitant to take the shot because they are of child bearing age. Will the vaccine impact their fertility? Cause problems during pregnancy? Make them less healthy? Cause birth defects (sounds like a terribly un PC phrase)? One nurse in the oncology practice where I go is not taking the vaccine.

3.Side effects. Most people don't seem to have terrible effects after shot one of either Pfizer or Moderna, but shot two is reported to be quite difficult, especially for Moderna. I will say I am not all that thrilled about getting my second shot because shot 1 (Moderna) put me straight to bed when I got home. I was so tired, dizzy. I slept for 14 hours. So if Shot 2 is supposed to be the baddy, I am super worried. That said, I am half way in so I WILL get it but... I am not looking forward to it. Yes, it's probably not as bad as having COVID but... it's nothing I am looking forward to experiencing.

4. Distrust of government- I think there is more than enough of this to go around ALL around. I know there are lots of conspiracy theories going around on all sides. Some of the common ones I have heard? They are trying to kill off the older population by giving it to them first. They are trying to kill off minority populations by setting up mass clinics in their neighborhoods. They are trying to kill off people with other pre-exisiting conditions and co-morbidities by giving it to them first. Some feel that the groups getting "priority" are not being given priority to help them, but to see how it reacts in them first. I don't BELIEVE these, but they are theories I hear frequently.

5. Religious or other ideological reasons. These have been around for ages. They are the same reasons people give for many other anti-vax stances. This one is no different. I am not saying they are without merit, but they are not specific to COVID vaccines.

MarcieB

I took the vaccine so my husband's family (including three small grandchildren) will visit us when they get to have a month vacation in the states (they are currently working in Ukraine). If that weren't happening I don't think I would get it. Mostly because the survival rate is like 99%. If it were 75% I would be more frightened. also because everyone I know who has had it (and by now I know of quite a few), has not had more difficulty than they would with the flu. And I have that O negative blood thing. This whole "you MUST get a vaccine kind of mandate feels like a lot of control coming from the government and I can't say I have had a lot of trust in *the powers that be* in a long time. On the other hand, I am not particularly bothered by taking it either.

legaljen1969

Marcie, I agree. The survival rate of 99% doesn’t exactly seem like the “science”
would demand a vaccine. And I got mine for selfish reasons- so I can travel end see family. I know it’s not popular- but I didn’t do it for the greater good. “Science” doesn’t exactly point to the need to have it for the greater good. But of the government is going to keep me from my life if I refuse, that’s why I relented.

Molly72

I took the vaccine eagerly & happily. Like every one here, I have had cancer, and not just once, but many times. The cancers led to other medical problems, some serious. So I am happy to still be alive, well---- sometimes! It has been tough, but some here have had it much worse than me.

Science kept us alive, strong constitutions did as well. Rational thinking that we should follow medical advice was important. Staying away from large crowds, washing our hands and wearing masks is simply common sense and should have absolutely no political meaning.

Legaljen, I am really appreciative of your letting us know of some of the reasons that people are ignoring scientific reasoning. I am rather isolated from that particular type of thought.
I am as you are aware, a liberal in most ways, and would like to know the way others believe.
Not to criticize, but to understand.
We need to respect others, there is way too much strife in our world.

Carool

I, too, couldn’t wait until my partner and I, and my brother and all my friends, got the vaccine. I have only two close friends (a married heterosexual couple) who are waiting to see if there are any bad and lingering effects of any of the vaccines. They live in a rural area in the Hudson Valley here in NY, and they don’t have to be in close contact with strangers.

As for the governors mandating masking, I’m 100% for it. I’m grateful to my governor, Cuomo, for mandating masks early last year. In my very liberal Brooklyn neighborhood, everyone (or almost) wears masks outdoors (and indoors in stores, etc., of course). I’m happy about that.

I think those states opening up are doing so precipitously. This includes my state. I hope I’m very wrong. I won’t be removing my two masks anytime soon.

Dr. Fauci and others say that we must reach herd immunity, and unless at least 75% of everyone age 16 and over is fully vaccinated, we won’t reach herd immunity. That’s the scientific reason for everyone to get a vaccine. And our country will be exporting the vaccines to those countries lacking them. At least I hope so.

legaljen1969

I started to reply, but I am going to have to go back and read these responses and try to be objective rather than reading them in a way that sounds quite insulting to me right now.

I gave reasons I have heard that people are abstaining from the vaccine. I did not say I believed all of those things.

legaljen1969

So, before I make any further comments, I want to say that what I say is what MY experience has been or what "I" have heard. It is not a comment on behalf of ALL southerners, ALL women, ALL conservatives, ALL Christians. I would appreciate it if you would not paint ALL of anyone by my comments and not paint me by the comments of other INDIVIDUALS who also make up any of the descriptive people groups I mentioned above.

I do not believe there is anything that applies to ALL of any racial, political, religious or other descriptor of a people group. At this point, we can't even say that ALL women have Vs and ALL men have Ps. (I don't know what this group will block at this point, so just trying to stay vague).

I believe in individuals. Beautifully created and diverse individuals. We all come to our beliefs based on our life experiences and to some degree we come to our life experiences based upon our beliefs that things are a certain way.

I do think the last four years in our US history has been the most divisive I have ever experienced. Now, we may differ on whose "fault" that is, but here is MY opinion. It is EVERYONE'S fault. Everyone who chose to dismiss someone because of a label placed upon them by themselves or others. Everyone who "cancelled" someone because of a comment or action that seemed bad because of a label or prejudice, when we might have felt different if we knew the totality of the situation. Who here has NEVER made a comment that they wished they could take back? If you have never experienced regret over a word or action, then you have been a very virtuous person and have been spared the heartache of knowing you disappointed or hurt another person.

I made snap judgments about some of you when I knew you were "liberal," but I have still read what your wrote and enjoyed learning from you. I am sure some of you made snap judgments about me upon learning I was conservative, whether you care to admit it or not. Maybe you decided that what I had to say was not worth reading or considering. I have very different opinions about almost everyone I jumped to conclusions about in the beginning. Learning your story, your human story, your life events, made me drill down and consider things more carefully. There is no-one here I judge by their politics anymore. I just consider you all warriors, survivors and fellow journeymen/women. This is a heck of a journey we have endured. Those of us who had to undergo surgeries and treatments for cancer in the midst of COVID- WOW. It's just one added thing.

Knowing some of the stories I have read, I can understand why you feel the way you feel and vote the way you vote.

I see some very dangerous things happening in our country. I see a future that will never be rid of COVID and will continue to be more and more controlled. I see a suicide rate and despair that continues to skyrocket as people lose hope of ever seeing loved ones again, and people who have lost hope of ever having any sort of what we used to believe was "normalcy." Our government has set things up so they can divide us. There is no unity wanted. Unity is NOT the desire of this President, VP or any other politician in Washington. COVID proved ONE thing to this country and to our politicians, that they could lock us all down and tell us when they would permit us to see our loved ones OR if they ever would OR maybe they never will. It proved that they could divide us and make us hate each other. It proved that our "news" organizations are nothing more than political propaganda stations. No-one has reported the "news" in our country is a LONG time, but less so in the past year than ever before. All our "news" reports is "Why you should hate people who don't see the world through the same lens you do and why you MUST believe they hate you too."

Ask yourself honestly, is there anything you have watched in the past year that made you hopeful? That didn't make you sad for the future of our country? That didn't make you angry? Afraid? Hopeless?

It probably sounds weird, but WhatNext has been my beacon of hope. It is filled with people trying to help others find hope, cures, treatments, and the courage to take the next step whatever that may be. It was especially so when Greg was here. That's why I hoped we could keep the politics out as much as possible, so we could just be humans.

Teachertina

The vaccine is a health issue for everyone, especially us folks with cancer concerns. The conversations about the government involvement and control through political means is what bothers me. No one has all the answers. Even the scientists are still studying COVID-19. I am trying very hard to listen to the science that we have so far in making common sense decisions about my life and what I feel comfortable doing or not doing. I also talked to my doctors about their recommendations for vaccinations, even flu and shingles. I respect the decisions others make since I have no idea what they may be dealing with or what they think about the political issues around it. The political situation just gets in the way for me. That’s just my opinion. I also respect the right to free speech for others to differ. We can agree to disagree if necessary. Hope you all are doing well and enjoying some Spring!

Molly72

No one is judging you, I like you & hope we all can understand each other. That's what talking here is all about, besides the cancer problem that we all share.
I accept that you see things differently, and want to figure out "why" and "how" we can help put our country back to normal again in our little group here.
No hate or condemnation here at all, just trying to understand.

My particular problem-- the vaccine is not political, it is a medical issue. That's what I don't get.
My daughter is now refusing to get it, and that really throws me for a loop. Her issues are not political, but medical. So I am confused. Why do some make this political? It's like seat belts
or bike helmets, or flu shots, it's not control, just safety.

You did get the vaccine, I got it as well. A good start to understanding each other. We are smart!

Carool

legaljen1969, I am very hopeful that President Biden, VP Harris, and Biden’s very competent cabinet has brought and will continue to bring some stability to our country and has restored and will continue to restore our democracy from the precipice of becoming an autocracy.

I do believe, strongly, that our president is sincere in striving to unify our country. But it’s hard to unify when elected Republicans are steadfastly refusing to do so with Democrats, and when a large number of them saw nothing amiss in an insurrection of our Capitol Building, and those who breached the doors were seeking to kill elected representatives.

Yes, there are “news” companies that want to foment hatred and division: Fox News and the others even more rabidly anti-democracy. But there are many honest news organizations that try for accuracy, not propaganda, in reporting the news. To say that ALL news media are bad is incorrect.

No one said anything about ALL any group: political, religious, geographical, etc. BTW, I didn’t know you were conservative politically.

During this pandemic, every country’s government is controlling its people, in order to try to stop the spread of the virus. There’s nothing wrong in this, especially when a society — ours — encourages people to care for themselves but not the rest of society.

Yes, I do feel anger at those who are fighting the scientists and doctors by refusing to mask, socially distance, and get the vaccine. They listened to Trump but laughed at or threatened Dr. Fauci. In doing so, they are hindering everything being done to prevent spread of Covid.

I’m sorry you felt attacked. I had no intention of attacking you when I spoke my mind.

MarcieB

Carool, I love and respect your presence here. I's like our art work - very different, but equally important. I, like legaljen, am conservative (if I HAVE to label myself), but I agree with liberal minded people about a lot of things. I really think that is true of most people? I cannot share your optimism about the Biden administration, but I am optimistic that things can improve, one way or another.

As for the vaccine, I am indifferent, but I am very happy it was developed so quickly in a time of need and is available to whoever wants it. And I think that is the point - not everyone wants it and should not be forced to take it - and that really isn't about science, that is about control. If you are not permitted to enter a place of business without vaccination proof, how long will it be before we are required to be microchipped (for our own protection...of course)? If you are not Christian you might not understand how frightening that concept is for us.

We are free people, and I know we all want to stay that way. Lots of people who have had our same diagnosis have chosen not to take the prescribed treatment for whatever reason, and they are allowed to make that choice. It may seem crazy to us, but it is not our life. Women have been seen all over this country wearing tee shirts that say, "My body, my choice" and everyone appears to think those shirts are empowering and fine. But, shouldn't that slogan extend to include whether or not one chooses to put a foreign substance in their body?

I honestly don't think we should argue or discuss this at great length here, it is divisive because we are all different, in spite of the thing that unites us - surviving with minimal discomfort, either physically or emotionally. I have learned so many good and positive things here. Just last night I used Theraworx Relief for a nighttime muscle cramp and it was amazing!! Thank you, for that one! and I am not so sure I would be taking anastrozole right now if it were not for all the personal information I was able to collect here. This is a valuable site to me, I hope we can keep it going, and remember to respect each other.

Carool

Marcie, thank you for your response. I love and respect your presence here, too, and your art.

legaljen brought up the topic of the vaccine and reasons for people’s refusing to take them, so I replied. Trump has entwined the pandemic with politics, so now we deal with them politically, most unfortunately.

I’m very liberal, but I do agree with conservatives — though never with the radical right — about some aspects of what many liberals espouse. For example, I detest the Justice Democrats and Bernie Sanders, though I do agree with most of their ideas. And I am very bothered by “woke” culture and its monitoring of every word people say.

I never said that people should be forced to take the vaccine. I think, however, that if we don’t vaccinate at least 75% or so of our adult population, we might not get herd immunity. And I do think people should not be allowed to go unmasked into interior public spaces.

Re abortion choice and vaccination choice comparison - Abortion affects no one but the pregnant woman, her partner (if he’s around), and the fetus. Covid affects everyone. Not vaccinating can and does affect others besides the person choosing to not get the vaccine.

As for not being Christian so perhaps being unable to understand why government control is so threatening, first, Jews are amongst the groups MOST likely to fear government control or control by the majority. Many Jews are hyper-vigilant against a fascist uprising, in which Jews will, inevitably, be a main target. I am a member of a minority group in a country that is seeing a rise in hatred of all minorities. I’m not saying Jews are in any way as targeted or maligned as Black people are or Asians or most other groups, but I still feel that if our government comes under control by an authoritarian leader, Jews and other minorities will be in great danger. BTW, I’d never have brought up religion had legaljen and now you mentioned it.

I certainly don’t want to fight here, and I am mindful of the purpose of WhatNext; however, I do think that we should be able to say what we want to when sensitive topics come up. I think that that freedom is indicative of our respect for each other as thinking adults who at times will disagree.

I’m very glad you’ve gotten some relief from your muscle cramps (I wasn’t the one who recommended Theraworx, BTW).

legaljen1969

@Carool, it is my perception that politicians on both sides politicized this issue.

I may be conservative, and I will admit I voted for Trump on the first go around because I felt the same disgust and hatred toward Hillary that many have expressed toward Trump. And quite honestly, I think that is a large part of how Trump got elected. There were people who didn't so much vote "FOR" Trump, but "Against" Hillary.

I think we all develop blinders and believe it is the other side's fault when an argument takes place. That's in our personal lives as well as our political lives.

I do have a question. IF Trump had won the election and the vaccine came available for mass distribution in early January but you knew that Trump would still be in office, would you have still been vaccinated? I have a number of friends who are super liberal who have told me that they wouldn't have taken the vaccine if Trump had been re-elected. To me, either you believe in the science and the need for the vaccine or you don't. Could you agree that if people refuse to get vaccinated just because of who is in the White House, that is making it political? I mean, I know people who have wild conspiracy theories about Biden too. So either way, it's crazy to me.

I do find it interesting that people at "peaceful protests" were not arrested for not wearing masks when there were thousands upon thousands of unmasked people at many of these protests, but people were arrested for trying to go to religious services even if the house of worship had outdoor services and even if they WERE wearing masks. I am talking about Christians, Jewish, Muslim. That is where I think it is political or biased. People can rampage through the streets destroying things and pay absolutely NO consequence, but you go to your local house of worship to pray for peace and you get sent to jail. It makes no sense to me. The lopsided enforcement of mandates and the way consequence are doled out makes it feel very political. It's just all inconsistent.

I was reading an article a couple of weeks ago that said almost 90% of hate crimes committed worldwide are committed against Jewish people. Far more than persecution of any other religion or race. That was news to me- not that I don't believe it. It was a huge wake up call on how we get so focused on what is going on in the US that we forget that certain people groups are far more persecuted in other areas of the world.

MarcieB

gosh...I think we have all really gone down some rabbit holes here! I do understand what legaljen was hoping to accomplish when she posted this to begin with. Did we all take it too personal?

As for bringing up religion, I am sorry if what I said was offensive, I just thought it necessary to help understand the reluctance to submit to control of any kind. (it comes from our book of Revelation and is central to preserving our very souls). I am VERY aware of the dangers for Jewish people should some of these radical people get their way. One of my best friends is Jewish - she does not so much practice it, but none of that really matters if you are targeted as a group. And Christianity springs from Judaism, so my support will always be with Israel and her people.

As for abortion, that is a sticky one, isn't it? It is a thing that makes me sad, but I would not impose my beliefs on the woman making the decision. You are right, it only affects a few people, unless you think about who that child could have grown up to have been and who that child may have loved...and on and on. And grandparents who may have wanted that child in their life? the ripple effect is huge when you think about it. Aside from that, the possible emotional damage which may result from that decision down the road is thing to think about? I have a friend who will never forgive herself for a decision she made many years ago and it is difficult to comfort her because she is judging herself. Of course you cannot compare abortion to vaccinations, but IF I chose not to be vaccinated, I could wear that same tee shirt, that's all - because that would be the reason, I would be choosing for my own body. I agree it would be a good thing to speed up herd immunity, which is another reason I opted to take it myself.

Carool, I think the reason all this even began might be because legaljen and I, unfortunately, had an unpleasant encounter with another poster on Easter Sunday. Someone, (not us) posted a message wishing everyone a good day and this poster became incensed and kind of snotty about how this site is NOT to be used for that. I agree, it's not. But, if someone here wants to acknowledge Ramadan or some kind of Wicken holiday, that's fine with me, I don't have to react, and I certainly would not insult. Lots of people who post here have strong feelings based on religion and some do not. If a post includes a reference to a religious holiday I really don't think it was posted in order to proselytize. Shortly after Easter was when this site went off the rails and notifications stopped. I honestly don't know if that had anything to do with anything, but, both legaljen and I noticed. So maybe we are touchy?!

Honestly, I am not trying to argue, just clarify where I am coming from. Right now I am all for putting this aside and talking about what flowers we are planting. And it was Molly who told me about Theraworks (it works, if you get night cramps you have to try it)!

Carool

Hi, Marcie and legaljen. Right now I won’t respond to most of what you both wrote, but I’ll say, legaljen, that I’d have had the vaccine, and ASAP, if Trump had stayed president. Trump didn’t create the vaccines (as you know), and I trust those who did.

Marcie, I didn’t see the comment criticizing wishing everyone a good Sunday on Easter Sunday. I think that criticism is ridiculous and, frankly, insulting of Christians. I agree that wishing people a good holiday for any religion is a GOOD thing — and I’m an atheist. It’s all done with good will. We’ve been saying these good wishes since we’ve been in WN.

Yes, abortion does affect more than the few I mentioned, but, obviously, the relatives won’t be exposed to sickness or possible death if the woman chooses to abort. I had a legal abortion when I was 27, and I’m forever grateful I was able to, and that other women were. I do agree that it should be each person’s choice whether or not to vaccinate. Right now, it’s abortion choice that is under legal attack (no one is forcing anyone to get the vaccine).

legaljen, I won’t get into the Clinton v. Trump comparison. As for the BLM demonstrations, I was upset that they continued for weeks during a pandemic. I got the need to protest, but I think some of that need, for young people, was to be able to congregate in large groups. But the demos were mostly outside, unlike most of the religious meetings. And those in the various religious meetings were not masked. As a Jew (and someone who loathes fundamentalists of any religion), I was furious and frightened by the Chasids who gathered in groups of thousands for a funeral and a wedding (two separate events, lol) here in Brooklyn, during the height of the pandemic here, when thousands of New Yorkers were dying and the hospitals had to bring in refrigerated trucks to store the corpses. Chasids believe they aren’t part of our country, though they still sought hospitalization in American hospitals when they ended up very ill of the virus.

I did know that Jews are the most or among the most persecuted. That’s one reason for Israel. I don’t support everything the Israeli government is doing — far from it. And I’d never want to live in any country so controlled, as Israel is, by very religious people, no matter the religion.

Marcie, I know you are not at all against Israel or Jews, and same for you, legaljen, or anyone else here.

Okay, enough of my lecture/diatribe. I don’t plant flowers, but I’ll come up with other pleasant topics!

Hugs,

Carol

MarcieB

Carool, obviously we do not agree on all things. But I just have to say - you are a person I would LOVE to sit down with for a couple hours over coffee (or a glass of wine), with or without a mask! ;-)

Teachertina

I have learned in my family’s large gatherings that talking about religion and politics usually leads to very heated discussions. But we still love each other anyway! Each individual needs to be heard and respected for the contribution to the discussion and for providing different viewpoints to be considered. If we all agreed on everything, how boring the world would be! Of course some believe their opinion is the only right one, there in is the rub. You can’t change the hearts and minds of them, but that’s ok too.

Carool

Marcie, I just read your last comment. I’d love to meet with you for coffee or wine! I think many of us here (maybe all of us) would have a great time if we could meet in person. Despite our differences, we’d find even more commonalities (not cancer-related, either). And we’d laugh a lot!

Carool

Teachertina, I agree! Your last comment was another I hadn’t seen until now.

I’m glad we’re getting those alerts on WN.